Holy Trinity Debate B84Ff3

Question: User: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lorlkLoO45s Mr. Deedat. >> Your uh uh discourse, thank you. We have the privilege previously of meeting each other, but thank you very much for this. Now, >> [clears throat] >> you mostly circle around the Holy Trinity. Mr. Deedat, that is something very important to me and to all Christianity. We believe in one God who has no companion with him in his deity and article of faith from the Muslims. Am I right? Now, if God has no companion with him in his deity, who are the we and who are the us in capital letters? I've read hundreds of times in the Holy Quran. I appreciate it cannot be translated and it can't be accepted as translation because people don't believe in it like that. But, where do you want me to accept a we in capital letters and the us in capital letters? If God has no companion with him in his deity, comment, please. >> [snorts] >> You see, you have the same problem. The problem is that you're thinking as a Westerner, as an Englishman. You're thinking as an Africaner. And now, you want to judge a Semitic book. >> [clears throat] >> Question. May I finish your question, sir? >> Uh please, we would like to have when you ask the questions, I didn't interrupt you in any way. Uh now, allow me to finish before you interject. Or, if you would do the better if you sit down for a while. If you sit down for a while, please, please missed that from from me. That's If you could sit down for a while, just sit down for a while. That's it. Sit down there and there is it. That's it. You see, you are now looking at an Eastern book. The Bible, which is an Eastern book. The Quran, which is an Eastern book, 17 fold. And as I was explaining that there are two types of plurals [clears throat] in both these languages. There is a plural of respect and there is a plural of numbers. If you say no, then I said the first verse of the Bible which you have in your hand is mistranslated. Throw it away. The first verse, in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. That word there in Hebrew, ask the professor. Ask the professor who's here. That word there is Elohim and Elohim is more than one. Gods. So, in other words, now you start with the first verse that dishonestly translate. No, I said this is the language of the Jew. This as is a plural of respect. In the Quran, the first time you come across that we I'm sure you read the commentary. And it speaks about it that even in royal proclamations, even in the Western society, they speak about we, we, we. Who is this we? the queen, the king speaks about we. Who is this we? This is no, it is a plural of respect, the royal we. >> [cough and clears throat] >> Then if you find this word in the Quran, we and us, dozens of times. [clears throat] Look, for 1,400 years, you mean to say no Arab Christians saw that? Did you know that there are 10 million Arab Christians in the world today? Arab Christians who know Arabic as their mother tongue and they can't see it? >> [snorts] >> That in the Quran, God Almighty is speaking about we we we us us us and it's supposed to be more than one. And yet the Quran said, "Qul hu Allahu Ahad. Say is Allah the one and only?" Not Allah, Jibril, and Muhammad or Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. He said, "No Arab Christian has ever posed such a question because they know they'll make a fool of themselves. Because they know in their language there are two types of plurals. These in the Hebrew Quran as well as in the Hebrew scriptures these are plurals of respect God is using, not plural of numbers." >> [cough] >> Jesus was telling his disciples that he's going away. And it was just before he prayed for you. >> [clears throat] >> And he asked them to be one as he and the Father is one. No. No. As I said, chapter 10, verse 30. You are not getting this. John 17. Jesus talking about the oneness. 10:30. Let me give it to you. Let me give it to you. You confirm it. Please open your books and see. Can you see? You start reading from verse 23. Jesus It says that Jesus walked in Solomon's Porch. Meaning in the temple of Jerusalem. Then came the Jews round about him. Meaning they surrounded him. And said, "How long does thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly." Then brandishing a finger in his face, he says, "Come on, man. Why are you keeping us in suspense? If you are the Christ that we're waiting for, tell us plainly." Meaning you're talking ambiguously. You're not putting forth your claim clearly enough. So, Jesus says, "I told you and you believe not. The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me." He says, "My sheep, with my followers, they hear my voice and I know them and they'll follow me. And I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish. My father which gave them me is greater than all and no man is able to pluck them out of my hand. Verse 28. Verse 29, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Verse 30, I and my father are one. In this you see In this you see that once a man has accepted faith, God sees fit that he remains in faith and I as a teacher, as a master, I see to it that the man remains in faith. We are one in this. Look, that's the context. You shouldn't [clears throat] have done that ahead. You went and bruised it. But look, this is the context. I'm giving you the context. So the Jews picked up stones again to stone him. That's the context. So Jesus says, "Many good works have I shown you from my father. For which of those works do you stone me?" And so they say, "For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, because that thou being a man makest thyself a god." This is another charge. First charge was that he was talking to mediacies. Now they charge him that he's claiming divinity. What does Jesus say? He says, "Is it not written in your law? The word law in Hebrew is Torah. Is [snorts] this not written written in the Torah? Is it not written in your law? I said, 'Ye are gods.'" He's quoting from the 82nd Psalm. He said, "If thee, God Almighty, calls them gods and the word of God came, that the prophets of God are called God in our language. This is the language is the genius of our language. Like I saw something very funny this morning. Coming from the school to No, from the school to the school. I saw a big banner in Afrikaans. Something [snorts] about Jesus is the hero. Jesus is God. It It is the hero in the in the book of Isaiah. Hero standing for the future. And it is the hero and there is saying here and waiting many and there's no savior besides me. Here means here. Here it says Jesus is here. In Afrikaans, there's a big map from from Glasgow to Wilson Road. On the on the left hand side as you go along. But the same word here, I see in toilets in Cape Town. When I go to the Cape Town, I had a need to go to the toilet and I go inside, it says the number here is You know what? This is in Afrikaans. >> [laughter] >> You see the language I said number here and I didn't I didn't know Afrikaans. I said number means things and here means here. I said but why do you have to say things here? >> [snorts] >> Then somebody told me, "No, here means gentleman." Okay? Here means gentleman. Here means Lord. Here means ball. Well, that's your language. That's the language that's a genius of your language. You says Jesus is here. Things are number here. Same spelling. But now you tell me that I will tell you differently. I will listen to you. So similarly, Jesus said, "Is it not written in the king you know in the Torah in the Old Testament? I said you are gods." If he called them gods, God calling them gods and whom the word of God came. Say your hands whom the father sanctified and sent it to the world that I'm blasphemous because I said I'm the son of God. It's nothing man. If I call myself the son of God is nothing. Even if I call myself God. In our language this is acceptable. I said I take you here. You are a gentleman. In that sense I give you the word here for myself. But no, you see Jesus said this word is used in our language so commonly. >> [clears throat] >> I was just I'd like to read a question to Mr. Deduct again on the divinity of Jesus. In John chapter 1 verse 1, we read, "Before [snorts] the world was created, the word already existed. He was with God, and he was the same as God." And then in verse 14 again, the word the word word is qualified by "The word became a human being and full of grace and truth lived among us. We saw his glory, the glory which he received as the Father's only Son." And then in verse 15, John spoke about him. He cried out, "This is not the one I was talking about when I say, 'He comes after me, but he's greater than I am because I existed before because he existed before I was born.'" Uh How do you interpret this? Is this not a clear indication that Jesus Christ is God? If you remember my words, I said, "Jesus Christ nowhere not in any Bible did he ever say at any time, 'I am God or worship me.'" And that what you're quoting is not but this author, whoever he was, Paul John, these are supposed to be his words. And the translation that you're using is quite a different translation from the King James version or I think even the good good news Bible. I don't know what translation are you using there. What's the translation that you have in your head? >> This is the good news. >> Oh, it's the good news. Correct. >> [snorts] >> So, it's a good news Bible. So, in other words, now this is a The This is not the actual wordings from the [clears throat] Greek because the King James would be nearest the revised standard version would be the nearest. This is more for preaching purposes. They have used the terminology in that way. >> If I only read the stance in the logos, the logos and proston theon logos and theos. That means that word was God. It's It's even better in the Greek. >> All right. >> Clear. >> All right. Now, the word was Theos. What [snorts] was it? Theos? >> What was it there? >> The logos. >> The logos. >> Logos. >> And the theos. >> All right. >> So, now, if you read that again. >> 1 [clears throat] John chapter 1 verse 1. >> It says, "In the beginning You know, what is that? In the beginning was the word and the word was with God. What is the Greek word there for God? >> Theos. >> Who theos? >> The God. >> And that is you have a capital G there. And that the word was God, that is ton theos. The word there is ton theos means a god. Now, a god it should have a small g. You see, that this is the system of the Western languages that when you have a proper noun, proper name, you put a capital letter and when you have a common noun, you put a small letter. Am I right? This is the system that the Western nations, whether Afrikaans or English or German, you use. That's your system. Now, who theos is the God, so you got a capital G. Ton theos means a god and you again have a capital G. >> But ton is only the accusative where who is nominative. >> But who is the? Ton is a. And then in 2 Corinthians 4:4 That's not you. 2 Corinthians 4:4 It says there >> [laughter] >> that the devil is the god of this world. 2 Corinthians 4:4. The devil is the god of this world. It is hotheos. If it is hotheos in verse one of John and you put a capital G, why do you put a small g there for the devil? Therefore, open your Good News Bible, you find that there is a small g for the devil. When it is hotheos, why did you play that game of changing these letters to say God God? Because in the language of the Bible, if you remember, God Almighty told Moses that behold, I have made you a god to Pharaoh. The word is God. I have [snorts] made you a god to Pharaoh and Aaron, thy brother, shall be thy god. The word God for Moses is a small g. Which again is hotheos in Greek. Why did you give Moses a small g and when you have all of the world, you put a capital G? >> We can't do that because as Professor Van Rooy stated clearly in the beginning, we don't study the Bible only verse each verse in itself. We compare the whole Bible. Each verse in the Bible can be compared with the rest of the Bible. If one doesn't do that, one tends to get away from the the main subject, the plan line direction in which the Bible takes us. >> So, you say simple direct translation. Simple direct translation, you are playing games. This Professor Nobody has right to Nobody even a simple direct translation hotheos means the god. For the devil, you must give him a capital G according to your system. You see, you must follow a system, honest system of translation. When you give it is used for a word, you put a capital letter this word for the use for the devil you put a small g. If you use for most you put a small g. That means now you are translating with a subjective mind. You are trying to prove your case. Exactly as the Jehovah's Witnesses anyway. You see now you Nobody has a right. See every church denomination according to their beliefs they are doing the translation. >> [clears throat] >> Therefore, you will not accept the new word translation. I want to know why. Because to me it might be more objective. He said, "No, no, no, no. These are the Jehovah's Witnesses and they have a particular point of view that they want to prove." So you are also trying to do the very same thing. You see at the back of the mind you have the Holy Trinity. So somehow you must prove your case. So you are saying they are looking at the whole Bible but you got theology at the back of the mind what you are out to prove. You are not translating sincerely objectively the words that are there. >> I think that the verses in John 1 John chapter 1 is clear and cannot be misinterpreted. I cannot read into it something which I had in which I have in my brain. It comes from itself and it's very clear and I can see no difference between all things and all things on. >> Thank you very much. So this gentleman would be very easy to say that I see no difference. But if these words were inspired by the Holy Spirit then surely the Holy Spirit knew the difference between these two words. Yeah. Between all things and all things and I was even just using it for variation for the sake of variation. >> [snorts] >> How?